Thursday, July 14, 2016

BLOG POST #2: SANTIAGO'S FATE (July 18-22)

You might be surprised to hear that there are those who believe that Santiago dies at the conclusion of the novel (and there is actually some evidence to support this). What is YOUR interpretation of the ending of the novel? Does Santiago live or die? Provide a convincing argument one way or another and cite some evidence from the text if possible to support your claim. This is definitely the type of question that lends itself so some well-intentioned banter between everyone!

38 comments:

  1. After looking deeper at the end of the book, I could see that there was more than one possibility of an ending. On page 126, when Manolin tells the old man to get better soon so he can teach him, Santiago avoids the statement, instead replying to the boy's other question of how he suffered. This seems to be a context clue pointing that shows the old man knows he is dying. Santiago also tells Manolin to relay to Pedrico that the fish is his (Pedrico's). This seems to show that the old man knows he won't live to use it, and is giving it to someone who will be able to do something with it. At the very end (page 127), the book states that old man is sleeping on his face, dreaming about lions. Although it doesn't bluntly say that he is dying, it seems as if it is a prelude to his death, which would be why the book ended at that point.

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    1. Going along with what you said about Santiago giving it away to someone who will be able to use it, he also gave the boy the spear. However, a little while after that it Santiago says to Manolin on page 125, "We must get a good killing lance and always have it on board. You can make the blade from a spring leaf from an old Ford. We can grind it in Guanabacoa. It should be sharp and not tempered so it will break." This made me think that he was still going to be alive because he kept saying "we" rather than "you."

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    2. Going along with what you said about Santiago giving it away to someone who will be able to use it, he also gave the boy the spear. However, a little while after that it Santiago says to Manolin on page 125, "We must get a good killing lance and always have it on board. You can make the blade from a spring leaf from an old Ford. We can grind it in Guanabacoa. It should be sharp and not tempered so it will break." This made me think that he was still going to be alive because he kept saying "we" rather than "you."

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    3. I definitely agree with your interpretation of this argument. I think we had similar points about his death. I see you mentioned about the fish he gave Pedrico and how Santiago knows he won't live to use it. I think that is a very valid point and I would have never thought of that! There are many possibilities to this ending, so I believe Hemingway left this to be decided by the reader.

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  2. Hemingway allows the reader to decide Santiago’s fate. After looking back to the last pages of the novel, I conclude that Santiago dies after his battle at sea. On page 127, the old man sleeps peacefully dreaming about lions. The lions represent his youthful days when he was strong and young, which leads me to believe he has gone to Heaven to be in a better place. On page 126, Manolin begins to cry for the second time since Santiago’s return. The emotion of the boy could indicate that he recognizes Santiago is dying and will not make it through the night. Lastly, throughout the book, Santiago preaches the equality between man and fish. Since the marlin dies, Santiago would have to die as well to keep the equilibrium.

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    1. The last comment about balancing the equilibrium between the old man and the marlin served as a great addition to your argument. I find it hard not noticing the importance of this detail concerning Santiago's fate; unfortunately, it slipped my vision as I searched for ideas regarding the topic. As far as Manolin's emotions I find it interesting that he could foresee the fisherman's death. Great interpretation!

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  3. The concluding of the novel is very open regarding Santiago’s fate. This allows the reader to decide whether Santiago lived or died. I believe that Santiago did pass away at the end of the book, due to the evidence Hemingway provided. For example, the boy was said to cry many times after seeing that Santiago was back and sick. “As the boy went out the door and down the worn coral rock road he was crying again. (126)” This statement claims that the boy was overcome with grief because of the suffering of the old man, and it also predicts that the boy knows of the upcoming death of Santiago. Furthermore, the old man is very sick and tired after his harsh journey and declares “In the night I spat something strange and felt something in my chest was broken. (125)” Santiago says that his chest is broken, which can be very deadly. This piece of evidence foreshadows an upcoming death from various complications in Santiago's body. Additionally, Hemingway provides a simple connection to Jesus’s death claiming that their was such bad wind and weather the night Santiago returned. When Jesus died there was bad storms also. Because of all of the similarities in Santiago's and Jesus's life, this shows that Santiago could have died as Hemingway made a connection to Jesus’s death. Finally, the last sentence of the novel is “The old man was dreaming about the lions (127)” which can conclude that the old man is now entering heaven.

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    1. I agree completely with your statement. I used many of the same examples, but I didn't think about the harsh weather relating to Jesus's life. That really supports your claim, due to all of the biblical allusions throughout the book. My reasoning behind this was how Santiago seemed to preach equality heavily throughout the book. He would talk to the fish. Since the marlin died, to be completely equal, Santiago would have to die in the end as well.

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  4. After going back and re-reading the end of the story I feel very strongly that Santiago is alive. One of the main reasons I feel that he is alive is because in the background information post about Hemingway’s “Code Hero”, the very first characteristic says, “They hold a concept of belief that nothing exists beyond death. When you are dead, you are dead. There is nothing more.” On the very last page, page 127, it says, “He was was still sleeping on his face and the boy was sitting by him watching him. The old man was dreaming about the lions.” If they believe that nothing exists after death, then I feel Hemingway would not have said he was “dreaming about the lions” because that would be saying that after death he was watching the lions on the beach, which would be contradicting his own characteristic of a “code hero.”

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    1. I happen to disagree with your statement. I can see what you're saying when you talk about contradicting the idea of "code hero" but in other ways, he might have not been. Yes, he may not believe anything exists after death, but this can be shown when he gives Pedrico the fish head. Santiago giving away his things can show the reader that he knows there is nothing after death, and that he hopes that he somehow is remembered through his things.

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    2. While the background information is a very good reason to believe Santiago lives in the end of the book, I disagree with your conclusion. Even though Ernest Hemingway believed that nothing exists beyond death, I believe that Santiago dies in the end. Hemingway made connections to Christ's life throughout the book, and may have followed the Christian theme by having the old man die. Christians believe that there is everlasting life after death, so the lions would be a representation of heaven. In addition, just because he believed about nothingness after death doesn’t mean he couldn’t write about other’s beliefs.

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    3. In response to Alison, one of the things I noticed when I went back into the book was that after he gave away his spear he then promised to go fishing with Manolin. Since Manolin looks up to him so much, I feel that Santiago would not have made this promise if he knew he wouldn't be able to keep it. Secondly, when Santiago gives Pedrico the fish head he could be doing it to thank him. On page 124 Manolin says, "Pedrico is looking after the skiff and the gear. What do you want done with the head?" Santiago says, "Let pedrico chop it up to ue in fish traps." Santiago didn't just give away his stuff, it was prompted first by Manolin, which you see again in the next line when Manolin asks what he wants to do with the spear. If Manolin hadn't asked what to do with those items, he would never have given them away.

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    4. Although your details supporting your answer are quite stable, I'd still disagree with the thought that Santiago lives. The way you interpreted the last line of the book was quite different than mine. The dreaming of lions would be Santiago looking back at his glory days. He was young and strong, and only have pure memories of this, there was no negativity. In my mind, this represents heaven perfectly, for Santiago at least.

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  5. In the final pages of his novel, Hemingway provides conflicting evidence both of Santiago’s death and also his survival, leaving the reader uncertain of the protagonist’s true fate. I believe that, in keeping with the preceding biblical allusions in other sections of the text, the final lines do indeed represent Santiago’s death; however, they could be interpreted as an allusion to Christ’s ascension into heaven after his resurrection. Although those who believe Santiago is alive point to his plans with Manolin, such as his statement that “we must get a good killing lance and always have it on board” on page 125, as well as his frequent use of the word “we” as evidence of his survival, I believe that those things could represent Jesus sending the Holy Spirit to Earth, a way of showing his disciples that he would always be with them; similarly, Santiago’s future plans with his apprentice seem to indicate that he will continue to be alive. The time he spends with the boy at the end of the novel draws parallels to the time Christ spent with his disciples after his resurrection. Additionally, it is mentioned earlier that the lions of Santiago’s dreams are those he saw in his youth, before his time in Havana. At the end of his time in human form, Christ returned to heaven, his home before coming to Earth. Therefore, the novel’s conclusion completes the cycle of allusions to the life of Jesus present throughout the text.

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    1. Wow, Ryan, I never thought of it that way! It may be that Hemingway is providing a biblical allusion, but I’m not so sure. My original interpretation was that Santiago died, but now I’m not so sure. After reading some other comments, it seems as if Hemingway provided conflicting ideas so that the reader could decide what happened in the end. Although I don’t believe the whole ending was an allusion, there were some parts I believe were true. What you said about the lions in comparison to Jesus’s return to his home town seemed to be very accurate. Your interpretation was fantastic, good job!

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  6. Some people believe in the conclusion of The Old Man and the Sea, Santiago dies. I am one of those people. The main piece of information that I noticed at the end of the book, was Santiago gave Manolin his spear, “”And the spear?” “You keep it if you want it,””(page 124). This sounds like a useless fact but it is not. In Hemingway’s Code Hero it says “They hold a concept of belief that nothing exists beyond death.” I think Santiago believes there isn’t anything after death so he is going to give away his belongings. Adding to this, he also gives Pedrico the head of the fish. Another fact I noticed was Santiago says, “I know how to care for them. In the night I spat something strange and felt something in my chest was broken,”(page 125). I believe that Hemingway was hinting that Santiago was dying by giving us this information. Finally, we all know that there was symbolism of Jesus’ crucifixion at the end of the text. Jesus dies on the cross, so one would think that Santiago would die at the end of the novel to finished that allusion. It may be considered a far-fetched opinion, but I believe Santiago died at the conclusion of The Old Man and the Sea.

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    1. In response to Ashley’s post, I also believe Santiago dies. As she quoted Santiago saying, “I spat something strange and felt something in my chest was broken” (Hemington 125). At first I assumed he was just spitting, but then on page 119 it says, “...he felt a strange taste in his mouth. It was coppery and sweet and he was afraid of it for a moment.” Santiago was really coughing up his old food and blood. This foreshadows that he’s sick and may die. Afterwards he spats again into the ocean and says to the sharks, “Eat that galanos. And make a dream you’ve killed a man” (Hemington 119). Santiago was straightforwardly saying he was dying.

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    2. I also think that Santiago dies at the end of the novel. I agree that his death is an allusion to Christ’s death on the cross. However, I believe that it is an allusion not to the crucifixion itself, but rather to Christ’s ascension into heaven. In a more literal sense, Santiago’s comments about something in his chest being broken do provide clear evidence of his death, as Ashley mentioned. To make a connection to her mention of the symbolism regarding Jesus’s death, an example of that is Santiago’s sleeping position, described on page 122 as “face down on the newspapers with his arms out straight and the palms of his hands up.” This is a clear reference to Christ's position on the cross.

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    3. I disagree with Ashley for a few reasons. Jesus did die during his crucifixion, but did you ever think about His resurrection? Santiago collapsing on the bed represented Jesus dying on the cross but, He did rise again. So I believe that Santiago did not die in the end, but "rose again".

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  7. Hemingway leaves Santiago’s destiny in the readers hands. I, however, believe that Santiago passes away in the end. Although Hemingway never directly states whether or not he does live or die, there are multiple reasons as to why I believe this. One example the reader can see is that throughout the novel, Santiago compares himself as an equal to the marlin.Since the fish dies, he also has to die be completely equal to the fish. The reader can also look back at the Christian symbolism shown in the novel on pages 121-122, and see that Santiago fell asleep in the same position as Jesus Christ when he was crucified, meaning that he had passed away. Lastly, on page 126, the boy found himself crying for the second time, possibly inferring that he knew Santiago was going to die soon.

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    1. I also believe that Santiago dies at the end. There are many details in the story that could prove this to be true. I would just like to point out a couple more facts that I noticed in the text. In my opinion, the most relevant one is on page 125. Santiago claims to be spitting up an odd substance, and he also says that he feels something broken in his chest. Additionally, someone pointed out to me that Hemingway actually stated something similar to that on page 119. “...he felt a strange taste in his mouth. It was coppery and sweet and he was afraid of it for a moment.” This seems as if he was spitting up blood, which could also lead to his death. Lastly, I’d like to know where in the story Santiago compares himself to the marlin. Was it throughout the entire book or one specific page that Hemingway states this?

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    2. In response to Alison, there are many things that could be said. Mainly, Santiago actually believed that the Marlin was better than him, and leaves it to the reader to decide whether they are of equal integrity. In addition, the destruction of the fish's dead body also seemed to work just as well as a symbol, considering how, when the fish was destroyed, Santiago felt as if he were the one that the sharks were tearing apart. With that in mind, there is a possibility that Santiago's "dream" about the lions was really just that part of his life flashing by as he died, and the reason the boy was crying was because the old man's body was already dead.

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    3. Also, in response to Ashley responding to Alison; the comparison between Santiago and the marlin was mostly inferred throughout the fight. However, the old man does call the marlin brother on page 92, which usually means that the speaking party believes that both parties are equal. Finally, on page 99, Santiago states that he was better than him (the fish) through trickery, further proving the point that Santiago was similar to the Marlin.

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  8. When I read through the book for the first time, immediately the thought struck me the Santiago may have died in the ending. Firstly, the old man had just battled a fish for three days at sea with little food, water, and rest. He also mentioned that he may have had broken his ribs (page 125). The boy was also very upset, which led me to believe that he must have thought Santiago was in bad condition. Secondly, he slept in the same position in which Christ was nailed to the cross. “He slept face down on the newspapers with his arms out straight and the palms of his hands up.” (page 122). This led me to believe that he died stretched out on his hard bed, just like Christ had on his cross. Thirdly, the last sentence of the book tells us that the old man was dreaming about the lions. (page 127). The lions represent joy, beauty, and peacefulness to the old fisherman. I believe he dies in the end of the book, and is finally able to rest and have peace.

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    1. Very insightful comment! I had not thought about the lions when I wrote my response. I agree that with little energy with lots of activity for three days, anyone could die. The idea that the lions symbolize peacefulness for the old man really helps support the argument that he died, but died peacefully and full of joy.

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  9. After three days out at sea without cooked food, proper clothing, insufficient amount of water, and vicious attacks from several sharks, anyone would have been exhausted to the point of death when returning. Therefore, I believe Santiago dies at the end of the novel. He was already an old man with “brown blotches of the benevolent skin cancer” and “deep-creased scars” when he went on his three-day odyssey (Hemington 9-10). Upon returning, he had a hard time carrying the mast across his shoulders and had to take multiple rests before reaching his shack. This shows Santiago’s exhaustion. Manolin cried when he saw the old man return out of love and respect. He ran into other sailors and explained Santiago’s position while not caring they saw him cry. Manolin is shaken by the old man’s condition and is relieved of his return, but also terrified of what it may lead to. In the beginning of the novel, Manolin went to grab food for Santiago knowing his “pot of yellow rice with fish” was a lie (Hemington 16). They went through this same fiction repeatedly. At the end of the book, Manolin says to Santiago, “You must get well fast for there is much that I can learn and you can teach me everything” (Hemington 126). This act may have been a plea of Manolin’s for Santiago not to die, and an act of normalism for Santiago. They both were avoiding the truth because they both knew deep down Santiago was going to die. Then at the end of the novel, the old man dreamed about the lions for the third and final time. This may be symbolic to Santiago’s youth, old age, and death coming together since he dreamed of it before, during, and at the end of his trip. After careful examination and these evidences, I believe Santiago died.

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  10. Benjamin Franklin once said,“nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes.” Dying happens to every living thing, and Santiago from The Old Man And The Sea was no exception. Perhaps the his time had simply come some time after the end of the book; however, that is unlikely, as the fact that he died was supported by Santiago’s actions and symptoms that occurred prior to the end of the book. The most notable action was that Santiago gave away the rest of his gear and fish in a way that was very similar to a will. In addition, Santiago gave his final request to Manolin, which was for the boy to get Santiago the news from when he was gone, and also was implicitly asking Manolin to tell him about Manolin’s life once they had been reunited in the next life. Both of these events, as well as the way Manolin appeared to the old man crying, show that both people knew that Santiago’s time had come. As to why he died, a reader may recall that he tasted blood in his mouth, described as coppery and sweet (Hemingway 119). Santiago also stated later, “In the night I spat something strange and felt something in my chest was broken,” (Hemingway 125). Both of these occurrences of hemoptysis, combined with the lightheadedness, difficulty breathing, and floating spots are signs of many major health concerns with the lungs. Judging by symptoms, it was most likely that Santiago’s condition was tuberculosis, which, given the time frame, would almost certainly kill an old man when left untreated. In conclusion, Santiago died of tuberculosis at the end of The Old Man And The Sea, which caused Manolin to leave the old man’s house crying as Santiago slept eternally.

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    1. I agree that Santiago dies at the end of the novel. I found your interpretation of his final conversations with the boy as a sort of will to be quite interesting, as I considered the same conversations to be his way of reassuring Manolin that he would be watching over him, in a manner similar to Jesus. Additionally, I interpreted Santiago’s asking for the newspapers as a literal request for Manolin to retrieve them, I think most readers would not have seen it as a reference to the afterlife; also, if Santiago fits the mold of Hemingway’s code hero, it was likely the character’s intent, if not the author’s, for the request to be taken literally. Your idea that Santiago might have died of tuberculosis raises some interesting questions in my mind concerning the author’s background. If your analysis is correct, it leads me to speculate that Hemingway himself may have had experiences with the disease during his lifetime, perhaps the death of an elderly family member. Of course, the fact that his symptoms match those of tuberculosis could also be purely coincidence, or they could have been included for an entirely different reason.

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  11. In responce to Ethan's post, I also believe that Santiago died at the end of the book. Hemingway did not bluntly say whether he died or not, but the evidence Hemingway provided was substantial to Santiago's death. For example, the author makes a clear connection between Jesus's life and Santiago's. Their lives and journeys were similar in many ways so for Hemingway not to connect their deaths would not fit in to his novel which is full of biblical allusions. To add on to your connection about the sickness of the man, it was obvious that Santiago knew that he was dying even through his journey. "He spat into the ocean and said, 'Eat that, galanos. And make a dream you've killed a man.'" (199) This statement claims that although Santiago did not want to give up, he had the knowledge that he was dying. Lastly, Santiago did not get help for his sickness when he got home, therefore; his complications would have killed him.

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  12. Although there could be multiple ways of interpreting the end of the book, a wealth of support for Santiago's death emerged throughout its course. The first of these one might ironically describe as continued life. The few times that Manolin came to light each revealed in their own way a likeness of the old man reflected in him. Hemingway also hints at a passing-down of teachings and ideologies to him, which would certainly alleviate an old man from the pain of knowing that they needed to be laid lifeless alongside him in the coffin. Pertaining to Santiago himself, several instances appeared to display him as suffering a worsening condition. The first two pages describe him as a frail man suffering from skin cancer, and his eyes, al contrario, "undefeated", and for this to truly serve as a contrasting image, the rest of Santiago should either be defeated or not far from it. His desperation to speak to various animals during his long journey seemed to symbolize his fight against this defeat. Each time he rested he dreamed of the lions, which gave him a sense of mental repose where he felt he could achieve a sort inner peace. Sleep was a key element for Santiago, and one that would eventually blanket him for eternity. The boy recognized this and cried but knew that the old man needed to rest at last, so he told those who asked to not disturb him (page 122). The old man returned in the end of the book to once again come to his mental sanctuary, only this time to remain there forever.

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  13. When I first read the prompt, I was unsure what to think. But I started to reread the ending and I came to the conclusion that the old man had died. I think this because of the fight with the fish. Throughout the book as he fought with the marlin, he was fighting an equal adversary. They were at odds for three days. It was an even fight. But I feel that because Hemingway made it an equal fight, it too must end equally. The marlin does end up dying in the end due to the strain put on it added with the shark attacks, and an even fight between two equal opponents can only end in death for both if one dies. This can also be seen after the three-day battle in the wear on Santiago’s body. His hands are cut, and he has hurt something in his chest. We know this from when he says “In the night I spat something strange and felt something in my chest was broken.” This tells the reader how damaged he was from the epic battle.

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    1. I agree with John that Santiago died. Many times throughout the novel, the old man references the marlin as his brother or equal, as seen on page 92. Although, I would never have thought Hemington killed off his main character because of the equal adversary he created. I disagree with this statement, because it seems irrational of Hemington. I believe Santiago died from old age, many hardships he had, and the monstrous attacks from the sharks.

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  14. There are many believers who believe Santiago dies at the end of The Old Man And The Sea, I am one of them. After his long journey in the ocean trying to catch fish, he came home with his body completely worn out. On page 124 Santiago states, "They beat me, Manolin, they truly beat me." After Manolin mentioned the fish did not beat him, Santiago responded by saying it was afterwards. It was implied he had broken ribs, he also cut both of his hands, and had a coppery sweet taste in his mouth. Even though there was more, this is all very similar to Christ's journey and I think this supports his death at the end of the book. Though it doesn't abruptly say Santiago passes away, there are many reasons and examples to prove it can be true. After finishing the book, the thought of Santiago passing away didn't immediately come to mind, but after doing some digging it occurred to me it was a huge possibility.

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    1. I also believe that Santiago passed away at the end of the novel. In your response you entered the quote "They beat me, Manolin, they truly beat me" and the connection that the quote has with Santiago's broken ribs. While reading I did not recognize the meaning of the quote or the fact that Santiago had broken ribs. I also missed the connection to Christ that you made about how Santiago's injuries are very similar to Christ's during crucifixion. That was an excellent connection! After you made that connection, as Jesus died on the cross it would make sense that Santiago died on his bed, as in blog response one many people made the connection between Santiago's final position and Christ's dying position. I also agree that maybe Santiago had not abruptly passed away in the final moment of the book but that Hemingway generally revealed hints towards his death. You made some very good connections and I agree with many of the ideas that you mentioned in your response!

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  15. After seeing other student’s responses, there are multiple ways to interpret the conclusive pages of the novel. My interpretation was that Santiago was dying on page 127. I believe Manolin shed so many tears because after all of the time he missed out on fishing with the old man, he would no longer be able to go out fishing with him. On page 125, Manolin seems to be in denial of Santiago’s physical state saying “Now we fish together again”, and later crying (Hemingway 125). Manolin continuously cries throughout the last few pages which hints at Santiago being close to death. Santiago’s physical state is very poor, which is understandable as he had been on the boat and was frail even before his commute to the deep sea. But on page 119, Santiago was having difficulty breathing and had a “coppery and sweet” taste in his mouth (Hemingway 119). It appears that he had coughed up blood, which would also contribute to the idea of his death on page 127. The last sentence of the novel reads “The old man was dreaming about the lions” (Hemingway 127). I believe that the lions are a representation of some sort of peace, joy, or hope. The lions seemed to make the old man joyful and calm. While Santiago was on the ocean, the lions rarely made an appearance in his dreams. Before and after the ordeal, the lions seemed to have a constant appearance. So, to me, the last sentence reveals peace, joy, and hope that Santiago finds before his death.

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  16. In Hemingway The Old Man and the Sea, it is unclear whether Santiago dies in the end or not. I believe that Santiago does not die in the end for several reasons. Hemingway never intentionally put biblical allusions in his book, so I looked past the crucifixion story when I made my final accusation. I believe that Santiago collapsed from exhaustion when he returned from sea rather than dieing in the end. The last sentence of the books reads, “The old man was dreaming about the lions” (Hemingway, 127). Santiago has had this reoccurring dream three times throughout the book. Once, before his journey out to see. Again, on the boat out at sea. And Lastly, After his return from sea. The first few time Santiago had his dreams he got strength from them because it reminded him of his youth, when he was young and full of power. When Santiago collapsed on his bed, I think the dream gave him strength again and if the book were to continue, he’d be ready for another day out at sea.

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    1. In response to Samantha's comment, I also found that Hemingway did not intend for his novel to have so many biblical allusions and hidden meanings; it was simply meant to be a book about an old fisherman. However, books are meant to be viewed in any way the reader chooses, and I believe that Santiago dies at the end of the novel. There is simply too much evidence to support the theory that I could not ignore it. Santiago is an old man and the last fishing trip was the furthest he had ever gone out to sea, which suggests that it was his final trip. There are many other reasons why I believe this theory, but the fact that Santiago is weak and tired throughout most of the novel is the reason that causes me to believe his death at the end of the novel.

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  17. Although it is not clearly stated in the novel, many people believe that main character Santiago dies at the end of The Old Man and the Sea. There is surprisingly a surplus of evidence to prove this theory, despite the fact that it was not included in the story. For example, it was made quite obvious throughout the novel that the fight between Santiago and the marlin was equal and that the two of them had the same level of strength. This suggests that if one of them dies, the other must die as well. Another way that Hemingway suggests Santiago's death is through both the old man's mental and physical weakness, which seems to worsen as the story goes on. The final way that proves the theory is true is that at the end of the novel, Santiago fell on his bed in the crucifix position and began to dream of his peaceful homeland, which is a way of saying he went to Heaven. This evidence causes me to believe the theory that Santiago dies at the end of The Old Man and the Sea.

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